White House is considering delisting Chinese companies from U.S. stock exchanges (bloomberg.com)
The growing confrontation between the West and China seems to me to boil down to a philosophical problem:
- Should free markets/societies/cultural entities allow participation by all actors, even those which (in their own spaces) obviously don't play by the rules of the entered market/society/culture?
- Or, should entry into the entity be restricted to those that themselves (in their own space) follow the rules of the entered culture?
It seems to me that there are definite advantages and disadvantages to both approaches and it's probably something that game theorists have addressed. To use a convoluted, over-simplified metaphor of a playground:
- If we allow kids (that have different rules in their own playground) into our playground, we run the risk of their rules overcoming or having a negative effect on ours. We also enable them to play with us while having "bad" rules on their own playground - some of which might give them an (unfair) advantage over us on our own playground. However, we get the benefits of having more kids and toys to play with. And, maybe the kids will choose our rules (which we perceive as better) over their own.
- If we don't allow them into our playground, we have less kids and toys to play with. We also have no real direct influence on them - they can't see that our rules are better in person, and we can't threaten to kick them out of our playground if they aren't in it to begin with. However, we avoid the risk of having their rules overwhelm ours and we worry less about them having unfair advantages over us on our own playground.
reply
xxxpupugo 58 minutes ago [-]
The growing confrontation between the West and China seems to me to boil down to a philosophical problem
It is not West VS China, it is mainly US VS China. EU and other Asian developed economies might disdain China ideologically, but I don't think they have the appetite to break the status quo this eagerly.
And it is nothing philosophical about it. It is geopolitical, and it is human nature. What you are saying are just intellectual seasoning, it may be necessary to intrigue the audience, but not for action.
China is a new world power that competes with US both militarily and economically. Post WWII, US had fought with Soviet/Japan on those fronts separately, but China looks like a combination of both, makes it even more threatening and hard to tolerate.
reply
factsaresacred 38 minutes ago [-]
but I don't think they have the appetite to break the status quo this eagerly.
Mainly they don't have the strength to break the status quo. Plus they don't want to jeopardise access to such a large market. It's a Faustian bargain they're beginning to regret.
China is going to rise, this cannot and should not be prevented. But allowing them to rise at your own country's expense is folly. America gets this.
reply
xxxpupugo 30 minutes ago [-]
Also US can weather itself the best if the status quo is broken, because it is currently on top. Other countries won't be so lucky.
Trump's actions feel dramatic, but mainly on the magnitude and fast aggression. Something is due to happen and the world needs to adapt to that new normal.
reply
simion314 29 minutes ago [-]
So you change the rules in the middle of the game so you don't lose, sounds right if you are the arbiter too
reply
leereeves 19 minutes ago [-]
China never obeyed the rules, so the rest of the world has a choice: continue to play by the old rules at a disadvantage to a cheating China, accept the new rules China has been playing by, or isolate China until they start playing by the old rules.
reply
jacquesm 21 minutes ago [-]
It's far simpler than that. In order to look good domestically Trump needs a foe, and China conveniently provides that foe. They're a credible threat, they are not his Russian buddies and the US is to a large extent dependent on them.
On top of that I suspect that when the last stone is overturned we will find a bunch of ways in which the US president and his cronies profited from the wild gyrations of the stock market as a result of the trade war.
reply
mytailorisrich 1 hour ago [-]
The West bulldozed its way through the whole world and imposed rules that benefit it.
The issue here is much less cultural that you might think.
China has been weak in the past couple of centuries and was thus on the receiving end. But as they grow stronger the rules will have to change to take them and their interests into account.
This obviously does not mean that we should cave in to everything. It means that they should have an equal say in the rules.
At the moment it's the US fighting China more than the West as a whole. It makes sense because it's US dominance that is under threat. The question is whether the US want to fight a losing battle or work constructively for the long term.
reply
OscarCunningham 2 minutes ago [-]
Alternative hypothesis: Trump is bullying China to make himself appear strong to US voters. He has no objective other than that.
reply
RobertRoberts 1 hour ago [-]
I think that you should play by the rules of the playground.
If you think its ok to try and change other peoples rules to suit yourself instead of adampting to the rules of the area you enter then you are simply a bully.
reply
jakeogh 25 minutes ago [-]
People catching a hint of the real power they have is an existential threat to traditional myth structures; not just China's.
reply
speedplane 1 hour ago [-]
The growing confrontation between the West and China seems to me to boil down to a philosophical problem ... Should free markets/societies/cultural entities allow participation by all actors, even those which (in their own spaces) obviously don't play by the rules of the entered market/society culture?
You're missing one of the major points: freedom. The issue is not just weighing the utilitarian pros/cons of allowing diversity of thought. In the U.S. (and generally the west), the ability to think and do what you want is valued as an important individual right that each person is entitled to, regardless of whether it's good or bad for society as whole.
reply
keiferski 1 hour ago [-]
I'm specifically talking about the issue of allowing non-agreeable actors into your own space, or in the case of this article, stock exchanges.
reply
input_sh 42 minutes ago [-]
What other country from the West has a beef with China?
This is purely US vs China. Leave the rest of us out of your own mess please.
reply
ng12 37 minutes ago [-]
So what's the message, the EU is only interested in combating oppression when there's no money on the table?
reply
efdee 32 minutes ago [-]
Are we pretending that any of this has to do with combatting oppression?
reply
greatpatton 35 minutes ago [-]
Yeah a little bit like the US, supporting Saudi Arabia whatever they do.
reply
input_sh 32 minutes ago [-]
Counter-question: How exactly is the US combating oppression in China? Apart from ruining your own relationship with your 3rd biggest trade partner, that is.
reply
tanilama 1 hour ago [-]
Emmmm, this is crazy. Capital will find its way just not through US exchange
reply
azurezyq 1 hour ago [-]
Ok, now WH is exploring all creative (and unprecedented) ways to fight against China. I have to say this seems to have crossed a lot of boundaries, either clear or vague ones.
And we've also seen WH is doing similar things (though at a different degree) to close partners like Mexico.
So let's extrapolate, if there're some conflicts in interests between US and major NATO countries, will WH do the same thing? Make America great again even no one wants to talk to US?
reply
greatpatton 1 hour ago [-]
Seems that the easy war with China is not that easy. So now the WH is resorting to other means to put pressure on China. This will backfire as the WH is trying really hard to make US less relevant. By actively using weapon that were previously seen as a huge deterrent, you make them a short term problem for China, but they will find a way around them and make them ineffective. The WH is fighting will almost all major economies (apart SA, Israel, and brexit Britain), and it's going to end pretty badly. I will be very surprised if we don't get a market crack before end of next year.
reply
Fjolsvith 27 minutes ago [-]
What'll really surprise you is when the central banking system is shut down.
reply
nosuchthing 13 minutes ago [-]
Isn’t bitmain ramping down production already though?
reply
nraynaud 1 hour ago [-]
The Chinese Exclusion Act passed in 1882, it's not like anything is new here, it's just the return of an old wave.
reply
fouc 1 hour ago [-]
I'm guessing that Chinese companies are somewhat similar to statutory companies. I've heard that large Chinese companies have strong CCP oversight, with a party member involved that the CEO/founder has to defer to.
So the question is - does it make sense for not-actually-public-companies from other countries to be listed on the U.S. stock exchange? It could be potentially misleading otherwise.
reply
thephyber 48 minutes ago [-]
The Alibaba listing in the US isn't even for stock in the Chinese company. It's "stock" in a Cayman Islands holding company that doesn't have any guarantee for stockholders to have any rights in the Chinese parent company.[1]
When the US president uses the bully pulpit to insult and threaten American-based multinational companies to suit his political / personal needs at the threat of a DoJ / SEC investigation or FAA license threat, how is that much different than a CCP official doing the same? I would argue it's not nearly as far as my fellow Americans would like to think it is.
[1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/beware-alibaba-ipo-isnt-re...
reply
hos234 16 minutes ago [-]
True but American don't like being pushed around while the Chinese are used to it. Which means the Bully is usually tolerated for much shorter durations than Chinese Bullies are. Churchill's rise and fall is a good example.
reply
nraynaud 57 minutes ago [-]
Boeing is listed in more or less the same conditions. Google is listed and they have strong links with political parties.
edit: the more direct answer is that the shares that are listed are free and publicly tradable, there exist other shares that are not available on the marketplace, like Facebook. But those shares are owned by state entities.
reply
dragonwriter 57 minutes ago [-]
All it means for a company to be a public company is that it has publicly traded equity. A company that is listed on a stock exchange is, ipso facto, a public company.
reply
ainiriand 44 minutes ago [-]
Lockheed Martin is in a similar situation.
reply
longcat 2 minutes ago [-]
sadly the CCP don't play by any rules
reply
iron0013 47 minutes ago [-]
Thread title does not match link title or content.
reply
riffraff 42 minutes ago [-]
while the title is a bit more inflammatory than the article, it does say that delisting is being considered amongst other options.
reply
tibbydudeza 50 minutes ago [-]
Time to bring out the duck and cover PSA videos ... US/UK vs China-Eurasian hegemony ... sounds like 1984 all over again.
reply
Fjolsvith 30 minutes ago [-]
Good.
The CCP pretty much owns every Chinese big company. And, they don't let people examine their books. Who's to say that all that American investment money isn't going into grossly or even fraudulently overvalued stock?
reply
Traster 27 minutes ago [-]
The SEC. If your concern is that companies listed on US stock exchanges aren't correctly reporting their financials thats an issue for the SEC. It's not an issue for a blanket ban on Chinese companies being listed. Preventing Americans from being able to trade their investments easily on a reputable exchange isn't going to help them.
reply
panpanna 1 hour ago [-]
How would this affect foreign pension funds that invest in NYSE?
Would they just sell their Chineses stocks or move some investment to another country??
reply
wruza 1 hour ago [-]
How would it change costs of chinese goods (esp. hardware) for a third world, if implemented?
Edit: added chinese
reply
basementcat 1 hour ago [-]
Would that just mean the securities will just trade on pink sheets? Or would it be more likely that trading would migrate to a stock exchange in another country?
reply
stefano 1 hour ago [-]
The London stock exchange would be an obvious candidate.
reply
cyborgx7 42 minutes ago [-]
I heard people were moving away from doing stocks in London with Brexit looming. Is this no longer the case?
reply
riffraff 36 minutes ago [-]
I know blackrock will delist quite a few EUR denominated ETFs[0] from the LSE, but what stocks actually mentioned leaving the LSE?
[0] https://www.etfstream.com/news/8949_blackrock-delists-43-etf...
reply
schuke 1 hour ago [-]
The Hong Kong Stock Exchange offered to buy LSE recently. I wonder if these are connected.
reply
asdf333 49 minutes ago [-]
i would recommend the documentary "the china hustle"
i was skeptical of the documentary before watching, but it is very good
reply
ackbar03 1 hour ago [-]
Im sorry but just reading this almost feels like an April Fools joke, except sadly its September
reply
kick 1 hour ago [-]
This seems reasonable, though the administration is likely doing it for the wrong reasons. Genuine question: Is sentiment more important than correctness, or is the opposite true?
reply
AsyncAwait 1 hour ago [-]
This seems reasonable
Does it? The U.S went to wars, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to force open markets to its products, it has been preaching the free market mantra for decades. Regardless of everything else about China, they're now starting to make some actually compelling products so the U.S is acting out.
I know the argument is that Chinese companies are just an extension of the state, but you could say the same in reverse about the U.S.
I just assumed it's going to be more subtle than this, as an EU citizen, this sends a clear signal to me that the EU is only an 'ally' as long as it keeps buying American products.
reply
tolqen 1 hour ago [-]
I know the argument is that Chinese companies are just an extension of the state, but you could say the same in reverse about the U.S
What
reply
simion314 38 minutes ago [-]
Also US started wars , military actions or changed the governments around the world,spied(maybe assassinations - I would apreciate someone if knows of a good example of this) , pushed international law for the interest of the big companies(aka for money) ex the banana wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars
Also the government will intervene on the internal market too with money,subsidies, regulations,exceptions to help the big companies,
in t he end the state and big companies are in a long relationship and there is no way you can deny this just ways you can try to find arguments that is fair and honest.
reply
AstralStorm 1 hour ago [-]
The US state being an extension of US companies, thanks to all the lobbying, collusion and some underhanded moves.
reply
chrischen 1 hour ago [-]
The US and citizens, even without direct stock, are beneficial owners of US companies because they contribute to the economy and livelihood of the local economy... that and National Security Letters.
reply
pinkfoot 1 hour ago [-]
I think a good argument can be made that Lockheed Martin and Boeing are extensions of the USG.
reply
DollarGuru 40 minutes ago [-]
Since the US gained global dominance post WW2 with the Marshall plan I don't think the US has ever really been that subtle about maintaining capitalist free market dominance.
As you say, now that China is producing compelling products the US is flexing a bit more because it sees a serious non ally threat to US interests. The biggest shame of it is that it is so unfortunate that China isn't more politically and legally upstanding and morally respectable like Europe is.
reply
_iyig 17 minutes ago [-]
I think you have cause and effect mixed up. The U.S. became a postwar economic superpower not because of the Marshall Plan, but because its chief competitors in Europe and the Pacific had utterly ruined one another’s economies after years of total war. Meanwhile, the United States’ manufacturing capacity had continued to expand.
The Marshall Plan certainly exposed Europeans to more American products, especially Hollywood and pop culture. However, the majority of Marshall Plan funds were given as grants, not loans - ultimately, even to Germany. American capital did not come to own and exploit Western Europe. On the contrary, one of the Marshall Plan’s main effects was to reduce intra-Europe trade barriers, setting the stage for the E.E.C. and later, the European Union.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
reply
DollarGuru 1 minute ago [-]
I misworded my comment, I meant that the Marshall Plan was the first obvious act in their own corporate self interest. You can't sell anything to people with no money.
ekc 1 hour ago [-]
They are running rival concentration camps, I can't imagine the competition is welcome.
reply
_iyig 36 minutes ago [-]
The U.S went to wars, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to force open markets to its products
This is a standard Marxist explanation for U.S. overseas military intervention. It is also largely wrong.
Let’s look at the data. After 16 years of obscenely expensive American intervention in Iraq, that country exports more to China than the U.S., and imports more from China and Turkey together than from all other trade partners combined [0]. Likewise, Afghanistan today imports almost nothing from the U.S., but relies heavily on exports from China and Iran - two major U.S. competitors [1]. This is, of course, geographical common sense. If anything, recent U.S. wars have opened new markets for China, their number one geopolitical competitor.
Looking further back, Germany, Japan, and South Korea have all developed into financially independent trading partners. Far from U.S. capital dominating Japan, Americans were afraid for quite some time that Japanese cars, electronics, and industrial equipment would completely displace their American equivalents.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iraq [2] http://stat.wto.org/CountryProfile/WSDBCountryPFView.aspx?La...
reply
AsyncAwait 11 minutes ago [-]
After 16 years of obscenely expensive American intervention in Iraq, that country exports more to China than the U.S. and imports more from China and Turkey together than from all other trade partners combined [0]. Likewise, Afghanistan today imports almost nothing from the U.S. but relies heavily on exports from China and Iran
U.S military contractors got handsomely rich off both Afghanistan and Iraq and both nations are almost exclusively importing American military equipment. As for civilian items, the average income of an Afghan/Iraqi civilian is not enough to afford American products, but just because not every U.S economic sector benefited does not mean it wasn't worth it for the likes of Raytheon.
As for Iran being very close to Iraq now, that certainly wasn't the plan, is just that there are other players in the world making moves and reacting to U.S. ones and sometimes they come out on top, particularly if they happen to understand the local political dynamic better, because they're actually from the area.
reply
OscarCunningham 7 minutes ago [-]
Why do you think it's reasonable?
reply
nabla9 1 hour ago [-]
Normally the US government has extraordinary power over China in financial sector.
But Trump has alienated all traditional allies. Threat to exclude China turns into opportunity for others to exploit the situation. Euronext, London, Toronto, Tokyo and Hong Kong are in the position to gain relative to NASDAQ and NYSE.
ps. I think the change of delisting happening is less than 5%.
reply
ainiriand 42 minutes ago [-]
I do not understand why this comment is being downvoted. The OP is absolutely right about this.
reply
aritmo 1 hour ago [-]
Looks like a proper shakedown.
reply
RaceWon 59 minutes ago [-]
More trade leverage and it will also destroy Biden. Brilliant.
reply
iscrewyou 1 hour ago [-]
Oh boy, this thread needs to be locked down. All the conversation has turned into political short outbursts and I only see one comment actually remotely talking about the topic.
Even the thread title is not what the article headline is. Maybe the title is at fault for off-topic conversations.
reply